Breaking the Glass Ceiling: Women of Color in Retail Leadership

Meet Kimberly Lee Minor, a dynamic force in retail leadership with over 25 years of industry experience. She's held pivotal roles in renowned organizations like Footlocker Global, London Fog, and Bath & Body Works. Currently serving as CEO of Bumbershoot, LLC, Kimberly's expertise lies in providing cultural and market insights for inclusive, equitable, and diverse representation across brand, content, product, and customer experience.

Kimberly's passion extends beyond business success. She's the founder of the Women of Color Retail Alliance (WOCRA), dedicated to closing the gender parity gap in retail leadership. As an educator and mentor at The Ohio State University Fisher College of Business, she promotes cultural competence and organizational excellence.

Join us in this episode as Kimberly shares her inspiring journey, leadership insights, and unwavering commitment to positive change in retail.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:50

There's so much, there's so much I want to talk to you about. This conversation has been so so long overdue. I think the one place that I you know we're gonna get into your career and all the great things that you've done but I think the definitely the one question that I definitely want to start with is, of course, the woman of color in retail. Right, I just think that's the best place to start, because I want to kind of put that stick in the ground and what you're doing and what you're talking about, and what's the woman of color and retail alliance what is it and what are you? I know you're trying to change the world. It's like pinky in the brain, Like what are you doing tonight, Kimberly? I'm trying to take over the world, Steve.

Speaker 2: 1:35

Wait, I'm trying, yeah, no, I appreciate you starting there because that is like foremost on my brain, not just because it's what I'm doing, like 80 hours a week, but there are so many topics that are affecting people, and especially women and women of color, and so the issues that have come up in every industry as it relates to women, women in leadership and women of color in those pipelines. It's not germane to retail. However, as someone who has spent the past 30 plus years in this industry, it is intimate to me. I know it, and while I've had an incredible career and it's not over, but I've had an incredible career I was in this industry, steve, for maybe 10 or 12 years before I realized that being a woman of color was going to get in my way Right, I just hadn't and I just I show up as

Speaker 2: 2:49

myself every day, but once I. But I'm not naive either, and so when I got into situations where I knew I was bringing it, I had the receipts, my sales were happening, my people were great, my people were great. My people were great and I still was being treated a certain way. I started to talk, look for peers and community, and it wasn't there, because we're so isolated. And so, as the years have gone on and you create your small little personal board of directors and we were talking and we shared so many different experiences and while we were all women, we were all different women, right, and so, if you think about it, I think it's a great thing. If you thought that the problem was just for black women, then you have friends who are Hispanic or Asian and you're having these conversations and their stories are almost identical. It's just a different person. And so I was in 2018 and we were talking and I said you know, I've been wanting to do something about this for a long time. I just didn't know what it was and I honestly didn't know what other people's stories were, because I was so busy trying to manage my own. And so, the more we talked, the more we said well, no, let's just start simple, we should know each other. Simple, and we kicked off with a virtual.

Speaker 2: 4:21

By the time we got it all together, it was September 20. And we did a virtual gathering we should know each other and it was beyond capacity. Incredible People were, you know, there were tears, there was, you know, just this realization that we need each other. But beyond that, there was something that really could be changed with the right focus, with the right allies, and we said, okay, well, let's figure it out. And so that's what we've been doing since then, and it has grown significantly. So in three years, you know, we went from 100 people on a Zoom to this last year we did it 30 events, 12 of them were C-suite, which was new right, because we said, well, hey, let's have conversations with the people who are knowingly or not standing in the door of inclusion.

Speaker 2: 5:20

Have those conversations, understand why, like, what are you thinking? How do you see us? Let's talk about that. And so that turned into 12 dinners across the United States and in Toronto talking to C-suite leaders in retail so that we could have the information we needed to help them. In addition, we've done a lot of partnerships with researchers, because I am a data-based professional and we have to have the data and there's a lot of data to have Because there, but it's not usually at the intersections, right. So we've been doing a lot of research to pull those pieces together and to write a white paper so people could really understand what is the state of retail for women of color, why does it matter, why does it matter to you and what do we? You know, walk Retail Alliance plan to do about it, but just to throw some of the data out there.

Speaker 2: 6:21

Yeah absolutely, women are 65% of corporate retail workforce, just 65%. Frontline 70%, but let's just talk about corporate. So 65% of corporate retail they are 37% corporate retail leadership and that's vice president and above.

Speaker 1: 6:48

Right.

Speaker 2: 6:50

Okay, so women of color combined, all women, all colors, right, all women of color are 6% of that number 6%. Now here's the thing when we start out as trainee, he's an entry level. We start out equal. They're 18% white women, 18% black women. When you get to the first level, 10% black women, 20% white women, and it continues to bifurcate from there. Right, those numbers cannot be ignored.

Speaker 2: 7:33

There's another research I just read the other day, I think it was from Pew. It said that if the pipeline to lead trip was open for all women and that gap closed by just 15%, that would be an additional $12 trillion to the GDP. And yet here we sit. So that's what the Walk Retail Alliance is based on. It's based on those numbers, making sure that we are constantly seeking, updating and changing the numbers. And so last year was the first time we were really able to track what our programming had done, and as a result of our programming, because our programming is, as I said, the C-suite dinners, but we also have level appropriate programming. That is networking, it's learning. We do workshops, career strategy workshops and panel discussions, and it's always around networking and we always curate who's going to be in the room.

Speaker 2: 8:46

No-transcript we had by I think it was by December 1st 23, five women who were actually able to move up in stations as a result of coming to our events and meeting people, because we should know each other and also understanding how to be strategic in their career. And so we had one who became SVP, two became AVPs right. So now we're moving, we're doing what?

Speaker 2: 9:19

we said we want to do, we're going to get them into the leadership pipeline. And there are also challenges that women of color face, through microaggressions or self you know, just like second guessing them, and it's always oh, you did that, that was great. Now here's another hurdle. Show me you can do that. Show me you can do that. And there was a. There were two young women who have been promised some things and then every time there was time to discuss it, oh, but you, you did these 10 things, but you didn't do this a lot. And so they were actually able to get into much better situations and now they're doing like international business with a company. So I'm very proud of that and I'm looking forward to scaling that as we continue.

Speaker 2: 10:06

You know, 24 is going to be a pivotal year for us. We are going on the road, we've made some incredible new partners and you know that's how we grow. It's all about collaboration. I'm when FUBU was a brand I was really proud of Damon Great. I was at Foot Locker and we got to sell it and I was really happy. But that as a concept for people who are trying to really make a difference doesn't really work. It's, you know, because, especially if it's a situation you didn't create. There's no way that you can fix it without having allies who have actually been more instrumental in creating the issue, and so partnership is very important to us.

Speaker 2: 10:52

You know, our vision for the future is, you know, women of color. Elevated right, cs elevated. The C suite needs to be diversified and then the industry will change. It will naturally change, it'll get bigger because, you know, it's about economic empowerment, it's about professional advancement, but it's really about, and it's really about all women. You know, and I know that oftentimes people will say, well, we're for all women, so okay, well, let's talk about, let's see your numbers. And when you say that 37% of leadership is women but only 6% is six groups, then you're not for all women, but we are, because that's the only way women will rise is if all women have the same access. So that's why we're alliance and I'm super excited. I was on the board and I took the leadership role as official, as official, in January 2. So, as a January, one became the CEO but actually started working in that capacity in October.

Speaker 1: 12:04

There are three things that I wanted to kind of like layer in and actually kind of kind of combine.

Speaker 1: 12:11

You talked about pipeline. You talked about, in the context of every level, the number from a diversity you know black and brown goes down. But then the other part that you talked about, which I loved. You said that you know, as you are having these meetings and you are dealing with the C suite people who are actually sort of the, the ones who actually are sort of the gatekeepers, if you will, for for these issues, when you have these conversations with these individuals, are they actually seeing the issue or is it because of your conversation that the light bulb sort of comes on and they're kind of like oh, I didn't really recognize that I actually had this problem and now I need to maybe do something different from any pipeline standpoint and then also, as they kind of go, as as the leaders go through and go up the next letter level, I need to be doing something different from an organizational standpoint. Are they? Are they? Are they actually getting what you're talking about, or is there is still more work to be done?

Speaker 2: 14:26

So both honestly. But here's an example I was talking to and this actually didn't happen in our C suite dinner, but this is the catalyst for our C suite dinner. But I was at luncheon and there was a woman there who is she's pretty iconic in retail. She's been in retail probably longer than we've been a lot. She's been CEO, she's been investors on the boards, she's a trailblazer.

Speaker 2: 15:02

And I introduced myself and I said I'd love to introduce you to the walk retail alliance. And so she said but wait, tell me more about you. And so I did. I told her she's like why don't, why don't I know you, like I've never met you, and I said I don't know, I don't know. And she said Well, well, okay. She said Can we stay in touch? And I said yes. I said but let me give you some more information. So I shared more data similar to what I shared with you. This you know last year's. The data has been updated since that book and so we exchanged information. She said I'll be right back.

Speaker 2: 15:41

She went and she got some information that she wanted me to have. She gave it to me and then she called me a few weeks later and she said Kimberly, you've really, you really shook me and I said how, what? And she said I have been in my career for long, so long, and I've been committed to making a difference for women in retail, she said and I have placed women on boards, I have promoted women, I'm 100% high women, she said. But after our conversation I went back and I did a little self assessment and I found out, to my embarrassment and disappointment in myself, that I had not promoted or or mentored a woman of color in 40, some years.

Speaker 2: 16:44

And I was like Well, you know, I appreciate your honesty and I don't want you to feel too bad because I think you know we reflect. We reflect, I said but now that you know, I want you to be active in helping me change that. You know, and she is a wonderful person, but it's those, and those are the people that you know will be helpful because they really self reflection. Now, when we had the C sweet dinner, it's, it's. You know, we hear a lot of things like I. The one thing I've heard repeatedly is we don't know where to find them. So I said Well, that's interesting because they're working for you.

Speaker 1: 17:32

Place number one right Start there.

Speaker 2: 17:35

Let's start there. But for some reason, three, four, five years in, you stop seeing them. But you see other people and and those people's careers have been nurtured, supported, sponsored, but there's something about the women of color that don't get the same attention. I said so that's what I would tell you start knowing who works for you because they're there. Other than that, that's why we're having these C sweet dinners, so we should know. So now you can call me, or you can call Bernadine, who's one of our. You know she's also with walk retail lines. I said you can call us. We have a database now of over 3000 amazing women of color and is growing every day, and so that was the next idea for walk retail lines. Like we should be recruiters.

Speaker 2: 18:28

Right, Right, Like what, come on, I'll be a hard first one. Like, we want to make sure you have what you need. So, as we are meeting you, we know, Okay, this person needs this training over here, this person needs a mentor to help them over here, this person's ready to just need exposure. Those are the things that are really important. But those, those comments, that's what we hear.

Speaker 2: 18:51

C sweet I have not heard. I've heard this, but not with our C sweet dinners. But I've heard Well, we want the best, which you know always just makes me happy here that people are thinking that we can't have the best because they don't understand the concept that the more diverse your talent pool, the more options to have to really have the best and understand what the best looks like, because it's not a color and it's not a gender, it's a thing that people bring with. And so if we can get people because I can't change racism and I can't change what was it? Gender discrimination? I can't, I can't change that but what I can do is make it more difficult for people to say those things and they have to be proven wrong, Right, so I can help the candidate and I can help the company that is interested in being, but the ones who aren't.

Speaker 2: 20:05

Honestly, they're just going to be left behind. Right, Because, as you look at this coming, well, they're here. Right, Generation Z they're here and while there are a lot of things that they didn't get because of pandemic and they need that nurturing they need, they need a little extra help in how they conduct themselves, how they but what's important to them is Outstanding and the fact that they are willing to die on a sword for your cause. It has to be what's important to them for them to walk into your building to work for you, and they're very talented and intelligent and just curious. If you can't make an environment that they can see themselves being successful in, you will lose out 100%.

Speaker 1: 21:00

It's interesting I'm and we're gonna move into some leadership. You know perspectives here In a sec. But when I, when I heard you say the word we want the best, it's almost, it's very. It seems like code. For I remember the word that a lot of companies used to use, word fit, and you know, cultural fit. Are they a fit? And it was that for me In my retail experience, that of what that was code for. You know, do they fit within the organization, whether it's from a, you know, you know, race standpoint? They wouldn't say it that way and when it wouldn't actually be that overt. But that's actually what they, that's what they really meant. And it's interesting that now the I feel like some of that terminology I've heard this, I've heard someone else say that same phrase that you just said we just won't, we just want the best. And what does that really mean? Whose definition are you using of best right? What are the parameters of best right? And then, more importantly, what are you actually doing To cultivate the best? And I don't think you know those two are Really necessarily happening and what we're seeing out there in a lot of instances, leadership is like your backbone, I mean.

Speaker 1: 22:09

I mean when I think about when I, when I first heard about you and you know I just did my due diligence, so you probably saw me like all on your LinkedIn profile I was like, okay, who was this young me? I got it, I got, I got a figure, I got to figure this thing out. I went to, I went to school on you and everything that you've, that, that you've done, of course, and then, as CEO of a bumper shot right, that is not the that was at the beginning of you know, of your, of your leadership. When you think about I'm gonna talk, take from a broad perspective and then kind of drill down. When you think, look at the landscape of leadership we just kind of talked a little bit about diversity and women of color. But when you just think about retail leadership in and of itself you just came from NRF, things like that what's what's missing in in in retail? Because I have my own perspective, I have my own thoughts, because I don't feel like the retail industry pays enough attention to the actual retail leader.

Speaker 1: 23:10

I'm a different place in the forefront. But I want to get your own perspective and I try to lead the witness here. But that's just my own thought.

Speaker 2: 23:17

Well, no, I mean, yeah, I think you're spot-on right. When I, when I came into the industry, I was fortunate enough to come in through Macy's executive training program and at the time you know that was late 80s and it was it was a Well known that Macy's executive training program was like the Harvard of retail and there were, there were several, you know, lauren Taylor had theirs, blooming Dales but what was special about the Macy's training program is that it taught you to be a merchant and so and, and it's also taught you what a merchant was, and so a merchant is a business leader, right. So you are building your business and and it teaches you all the connections and you know, you ran your business and so, by having that background, when I moved on to Express, which was very entrepreneurial and it was specialty store and it was at the beginning stage, like you know, it was 91 92 Again, you were responsible for your business. So you had to understand these are people who I have to work with. This is what it needs to look like. These, this is what success looks like. I'm negotiating, I'm finding the product. You know, I'm working directly with my stores, even though I'm not responsible for stores. If I want my product to sell, I need to have relationships with my store people because I need to know why isn't selling what? What should be doing all of that? So now let's fast forward to two thousands those of us who were in those leadership roles or those training programs who led to leadership roles. We're doing well because we've had that training.

Speaker 2: 25:09

By the time you get to, like the 2005, 2010, those programs aren't the same. They're very siloed and a merchant in title is Not necessarily a merchant because you're just picking right. So now you, you don't necessarily know how to run a business. You know how to select your product and your customer relationship has kind of gone away because you sit in your office and so then it's a storyline versus the corporate Organization, as opposed to understanding that this is one brand. And then you so your leaders Start to reflect this new way of doing business. Oh, it's very interesting to watch because I don't think I'm old. But when you know, when you're interviewing or you know called about these jobs like I had a conversation not too long ago with a recruiter you said you know Kimberly Two years ago, the fact that you have been president of these brands as well as worked for L brands and Mace and had Macy executive training experience, would have been automatically in door.

Speaker 2: 26:27

Now, these new brands, with these new younger leaders who don't know anything about what retail is supposed to be and where those connections were supposed to be, they want someone who is digital, who has done something innovative. Now, to my benefit I was president of Bandir so they're like yes, you know how to you know still, but most people don't, and so we those are the. They kind of been put out to pasture because this pendulum has swung to it. You had to be digitally native and how do we find all the you know? How do we find all these people?

Speaker 2: 27:07

That is a disservice to the industry, because no business, none, none, steve, there's not a brand out there who isn't selling to people. And so what? How can you be successful in a consumer, hyper consumer focused industry if all of your focus is on algorithms and it's cost of acquisition? How are you retaining this customer but you're not interacting with the customer, so you don't even know what they're, who they are, what they want, right, and I think that's that's what I think is a big problem with leadership, because they have not been taught how to lead people and a business. They've been taught how to read the numbers and react to those numbers and create influencer strategies and all these things that you can see. They're just waning.

Speaker 2: 28:09

Yesterday I was talking to a former colleague who is in the Celebrity and sports influencer business and doing Hella great. I Just happened to reach out to her, ask a question yesterday and she's like oh, I lost my job today and I said what I just talked to you you have this big thing going with you know this big celebrity. She's like, yeah, and then October 7th, and Now those people, those celebrities, sports stars, they're all. They all have an opinion and when they put their opinion out there Then it becomes a problem for the brand. So these three brands who were huge, like they did an event, one event that cost a million dollars, and they've decided they don't want to do influencer anymore because it's dangerous to the brand.

Speaker 2: 29:10

So now, if you are a leader who all you know is that and you don't know how to really connect with your customer, how can you be successful, right? And how do you lead a team where you don't have the experience of having human contact and you know, just like having people embrace a common cause, which is whatever the brand you're selling, but it has to be, it has to be some emotion to it, right? Because even brands, brands that lead with function, don't do as well as brands that lead with emotion and community and all those things. Right, we were talking about Samsung and Apple In the United States. Samsung leads with function, right, so we know they're incredible. Their function is incredible, right, was their market size compared to Apple in the United States. So those are the things I think are missing, and I don't know if you've seen the same thing, but I just think that it's very, very short-sighted approach 100%.

Speaker 1: 30:30

No, you're spot on when the individuals that I see coming through from a coaching standpoint there's two sides of it. They're the executive who's been with the company for 15, 20 years and they are so heavily tied to that I think you and I had this conversation before. They are so heavily tied to that brand and now they are trying to become Kimberly Minor and understand what you want to stand for and they don't know. They're like I don't really know what I stand for. It's because I've been so heavily tethered to this company and so trying to help them kind of decouple themselves and really find out who they really are and what it is that they want to stand for. And then you go to the other end of the spectrum where you have the younger leaders who are coming because they do have created a really good online presence, they understand digital, but they don't understand, they don't have the business acumen, they don't understand data literacy, they don't understand how to have just a one-on-one conversation in order to provide feedback. And so you have these two different ends of the spectrum from a leadership standpoint and there is this massive gap that really needs to be addressed, and I know that's what your organization is doing is addressing that gap on both ends.

Speaker 1: 31:57

The interesting thing is that when I think about, just like a lot of people, my retail career started I was in accounting, hated it. I lasted probably six months and I remember I was thrown into a district manager and training program with Caribou Coffee and, like I told him, I said I don't know anything about coffee. I have no clue about coffee. In college I was a Mountain Dew guy. But he said you know what, you have business acumen. You understand how business works. And then in the Air Force I had oversight for two different planes and so you understand how to lead people Right, and so I didn't think about those transferable skills and I've leveraged that my entire career.

Speaker 1: 32:41

And I think that's what we're missing to your point is that ability to be able to take data and make a decision but also understand how people play a role within that decision that you're going to make and not also making sure that you're able to lead people effectively. We are missing the human connection. It's talking to someone in our community. We have a learning called Learning Labs. These are one hour, intensified like programs, and we're doing one generative AI for retail leaders. And it's interesting because the individuals who I've been talking to around this AI is like Steve, I have no clue. Like I hear my boss talking about it, I can hear think about it in principle, but what does this really mean to me? So just kind of further your point around, like when you think about the data and you think about all these different things, the leader has to be able to kind of translate that and turn it into and internalize it and then be able to educate other people. I think that's a massive piece that's missing right now in the retail leadership.

Speaker 2: 33:45

Well, you know what's interesting? What we have in common is that we didn't come to retail by retail Right. My degree is in radio, television and film, with a minor in art, dance and speech.

Speaker 1: 34:02

Really Malagachia.

Speaker 2: 34:05

Right. And the recruiter who was on campus, he was relentless. So, kimberly, you're going to sign up for that test yet no, no, I have no interest in retail, because what I knew about retail I had no interest in. I was not working on the floor, right, I was like yeah no no, I don't.

Speaker 2: 34:29

I said I didn't study retail, I'm not your person, sorry. So he would talk to me every time he saw me, like it was in a sack. So finally, I was talking to my dad and I was like this guy just went home and my dad was like well, you're not going to be a starving artist. Like well, so what do you plan to do with this? You know, you got offered a job in some place in like North Dakota. I don't see you doing that, right? And I said yeah, I'm not sure. I said I'm going to go to grad school. I'm not sure. And he was like well, I think you should get sure, because I think you think about having a job. You can go to school while you're working and I think you should just take the test. And I said, but why? He said but you've always been entrepreneurial. Right, I had my first business when I was 12 and I was catering for my mom's friends. Right, I've always been creative. Like telling the story had backyard you know his backyard theater, like the summer theater things. You hang up a, you hang up sheets off the side and you write a play, like I used to do that stuff all the time I was that person post child for the geek, you know like, oh, we're going to do, and I was. I danced, you know. I was on stage, like all those things.

Speaker 2: 35:43

I did art, I had an art show, I had hurt my knee and I couldn't dance, and so I was like, mom, I have to do something. And she's like, okay, what do you want to do? I said, well, I love to, I love art. She's like, yeah, I know. Oh, well, there's art school, let's see if you can get in. You had to be 12 to get in, nine, but I passed the test and so they let me in. And so I've always just had a very diverse background, lots of interest.

Speaker 2: 36:13

And when I finally said, yes, I think his name was Rick and I said, okay, okay, rick, fillet, take the test.

Speaker 2: 36:23

And we, you know, after I took the test and I had a very high score, we were talking and he said you know, here's why, here's why I saw how you interact with people, and they were all people and you had something of interest to say to all of them.

Speaker 2: 36:41

And he said to me that is what retail, retail, is how we tell stories and how we connect with each other, and we can do it through products, we can do it through the marketing, but it's a connoisseur and the fact that you have all these different interests means you have interests in different people, which is what makes a really good merchant and retailer, because you don't have a pre, a prethought, right you, there's no prejudice. It's like oh, that's the person who's different than the person I met five minutes ago. That's cool, who are you, and so you know. I say that to say that's what I think also might be missing a little bit, because we we have divided and taken teams and make judgments very quickly about people that we don't know and we're not open to get to know them.

Speaker 1: 37:36

My good friend Torben, over in the Netherlands. He and I were just having this conversation the other day and he was a vice president for Nike and was over here in the States for a long period of time and then moved back over. He's from the Netherlands, but he lives in Amsterdam right now and we were talking about this, talking about leadership, and he said, steve, you know, the one thing that I feel is missing very soon to what you said is the ability for me to have a conversation and to learn about the person that's right in front of me. Like how do I move, remove the blinders, remove all this other stuff and really just be curious about who you are as a person, as an elite and as an individual? And then, how can I help you? What, after I'm learning something about you, what can I do to actually help you? What can I do to not just advance your career right, because that's that I think honestly. I think those are some of the easy parts, but it's like, how do I help you become better at who you are? Right? I think we you and I are both been very fortunate in our in our careers to have had some amazing, amazing, amazing leaders and mentors who you know, you know, in our lives.

Speaker 1: 38:48

I had a question here, one of the things that, oh, here's a question I had. Here's a question. I'm going to cut this up in post. Were you a reluctant leader? Where you are a reluctant leader, did you always? You know, because I think a lot of when people see you right, they see you on stage and they see you having a conversation and they're like man, kim Lee was probably like she, probably like you know, you know at you know, talk to the doctor like, hey, don't, don't you slap me. Like you know, when you were born, it was like, hey, let me tell you something about yourself. Right, like you were, like you were born like a leader, or were you a reluctant leader? You kind of like morphed and moved into this role.

Speaker 2: 39:32

I wish I could say I was reluctant leader. But it's good yeah.

Speaker 2: 39:38

I know you're a friend of mine from elementary school. This weekend because I've been asked by my high school to endow a scholarship, and I was talking to a friend and we hadn't talked in a while, like I actually had been 15 years, and she said something that it hit me a certain way. So we were talking about a bunch of stuff and and where I grew up it was a suburb of Philly very few black people thinking it was too bad in our school. And when the woman who had reached out to me when I told her what I wanted the scholarship to be about and who it was for, she was like, well, I want your scholarship to be successful and you know, they just don't seem to come out for scholarships. So I was like, who is that?

Speaker 2: 40:45

I knew that my friend worked at the high school, right, and so I reached out and I was like okay, so this is the feedback I've gotten, but this is what I really want to do. I want this money every year to go to a woman of color who wants an education but doesn't know what she wants to do. It's like that's amazing. Like that's amazing. No adult has said it's okay not to know what you want to do and I said right, but that's what I want.

Speaker 2: 41:13

And she got quiet and she said okay. So I said to say this, because I've known you since you were five she's like how did you? Just? She's like you were kind of like a kick-ass kid and you just were like this is what we're going to do, we're going to do this, and this is why she said, and you get in that way your whole life and like when situations happen, you're like, okay, so let me just recap. So here's where we had the problem, so let's just fix that. And so when I was in school, you know, I was president of my class, I was president of student government in my community organizations and you know, but I never really here's the thing, steve I never stepped up or said I want to do that.

Speaker 2: 42:06

It would always come like here are the nominees, like before you even think about it, and they're like okay, kimberley's been nominated, right. So I guess, while I felt comfortable I've always felt comfortable in that space I've also been supported by people who see me in that role and respect me to be a leader who would do the right thing for them. And that's what she was talking about too, because I said there's still some issues. There sounds like there are issues. I guess they still exist where neighborhood politics like you live in the neighborhood with all white people and then I live in the neighborhood that's near the railroad tracks, and so I feel bad about myself.

Speaker 2: 42:54

And what Kimmy said was she was like well, you never cared. You never cared. You saw us all as, hey, we're all in this. Why are you mad at me? My mom and dad bought that house. I don't know anything to do with that house, but I'm here with you and what do you need? How can I help? How can I make this better? How can I help? And so I think and I come from people like that, you know, I'm from my mom and dad be those people for other people and in my community, and I think there's a lot of me. Who that is, I didn't know. There was another choice, because I felt like, like I'm just that person that if something's not right and it needs to be done, am I going to wait for somebody else to do it, or am I going to start figuring out how to do it and bring people with me to make it happen. And I'm more of that.

Speaker 1: 43:55

That's so good. That's so good. I got two more things I want to cover, and everything we just spoke about is a perfect segue into you being an adjunct professor Right, you having that surety of who you are, what you stand for. You know when you see a problem hey, you know what I see it. We talk about leadership. Right, you see and seize opportunities. Right, you have that ability to do that. But now, as an adjunct, right, you are teaching a generation of leaders or people, students, who may not have that same kind of like you know understanding of the world, and they may have to think differently. How are you able to, or what are some of the lessons that you've learned personally from educating and connecting with some of these students that you know? You were like, oh, I didn't expect that this was going to happen. I thought I was just going to be able to share all of my wisdom. And here I am. I'm learning X, y and Z from some of these guys and gals and people at Ohio State University, right?

Speaker 2: 45:06

Yeah, ohio State Fisher School, so let me just say this Childbirth and teaching 20 year olds scary as hell. I just put it out there. Not a lot of shaking I will, not a lot of shakes me, but childbirth and walking into that class for the first time shook. I was shook, right. I was like, oh, and I'm because I did walk in, thinking I know this, I know this information and I've done it. I can bring this and look at 45 people, just right. And so I just I was thinking about it and think about it and I actually called my son, who is also a senior in college, and I said I need some advice.

Speaker 2: 46:09

Here's what I'm thinking. What do you think? And he was like he is great. He was like, look, mom, first of all, you're intimidating as hell. Like, just put it out there. He's like I love you, I'm not intimidated, but sometimes, right, he's like so you just have to. You might want to take a few minutes to think about that Like you carry yourself a certain way and everybody who's in your class has looked you up. You think about that. Right, like that's what you bring with you and it's positive, but you're going to have to make it almost invisible, right, bring it, bring it, but not bring it right. Oh, that's good, john, thank you he's like and let people ease into it. He said you are funny. You're really funny when you like the stuff you say you're like mom right.

Speaker 2: 47:08

He said say that, be that person, don't feel like you have to put that in a bag. Just be. You make people laugh, and we learn things when we are comfortable, and just like you would do with Carter or me, and if we say something that's ridiculous and you're like what, wait a minute, we need to go back and let's talk about that. He said that's good. He said because that doesn't happen in classrooms. Most people don't really teach, they put slot. He says so if you just bring yourself and understand, it's going to take a while for people not to be intimidated. It's going to be, it's going to be good. And so that's what I did. Now, most people liked it. Some people know, but that's the way it is too. But what I've learned? I learned a lot from my children, but what I've learned from my students is the world has really big expectations for them, but we haven't given them all the tools for them to live up to those expectations. And so this is my second semester teaching and in my brand management class here's an example.

Speaker 2: 48:28

We were talking about brand positioning statements and how important they are, and so they had an exercise to do and they were doing, and they also everybody's once in A. And so they were, like you know, we won, was you know doing this? But then, point to you, asked us for 250 words statement on who we are as a brand. But when I, when we looked at the video, it was just a one liner. So I said well, there are two parts to your your assignment that one refer to existing brands in the marketplace for you to create a brand statement.

Speaker 2: 49:08

And then your classmates were going to tell you what brand that was. And there's two yes, it's 250 words statement about who you are. Because we're going to create brand positioning statements on you. You are a brand. And I said has anyone ever talked to you about who you are as a brand, your personal brand? One person raise your hand. I have 50 students this semester. One person raise your hand and I said well, have you ever aside from someone telling you that? Have you ever considered it? And they were like well, no. I said well, tell me why. I said because when we think of a brand, we think of selling you have to sell brand, but we're not selling ourselves.

Speaker 2: 49:48

I said so what are you doing when you go in your job area? Oh, and then do you have LinkedIn pages? Yes, and what's on those pages if you're not a brand? And so they're like right. And so it was just so much fun because I was like okay, here are four statements. I want you to take those 250 words, I want you to condense them into these four statements I am, I have, I will and I want. And it was just eye-opening to them. And when we came back to class early, we never really thought about that because we think about this, right, or you know, and what I love about them now that they're more comfortable because we're going into our fourth week class is that they will ask questions about anything. And I told them at the beginning I was like if you don't ask me questions, we're not going to be friends, like.

Speaker 2: 50:51

I want to ask a bunch of questions and they're good questions and I ask them questions just for questions. But I'm also seeing the most introvert of students go up to class a little early to have the conversation, talk about okay, that's important, or stay after class, and I absolutely love that because they're not getting that information anywhere else. And I thought I said we're going to learn brand strategy, but you're also going to learn how to leave this classroom and graduate and go out with the confidence that you need to be successful. And so you know people seem to like that. They're also used to coaches. You know they had an assignment to do an outline and they came to the professor do you just want the outline with the names and how we're going to approach this project? I said yes, nothing else. I said no, is this not right? Yes, but they're used to. And I was like wow, did we do that? Did we create these children or young people who A don't know what to expect, but when they are expecting something, it's a gotcha.

Speaker 1: 52:05

That's so good. That's so good. We see that professionally, though, too right. We see that gotcha mentality. The one thing I love about what you said is that I did adjunct for a number of years and what we do now in the campus we do the majority of all of our training is live right, we have a couple of you know what we call learning labs, things like that, but we actually record those live and then they're up in the community.

Speaker 1: 52:34

There's this thing that it's not new, but I've kind of sort of coined the phrase. It's these moments of revelation right that you get, or that the students get. Right, that you can't get from an LMS setting. Right, if you're looking at, if someone who is training and they're looking at LMS, you know that learning management system and someone you know looking at and they say something awesome, all you can do is rewind and then repeat what that person just said. You can't go deeper, you can't go broader. There isn't any at that moment of revelation when someone wants to go deeper and broader just like you were talking about the students that were that would stay afterwards there was something that you said in class that resonated with them so much they were like I got to know more about this one.

Speaker 1: 53:19

I got to know more about that that's where the real learning kind of takes place and it gets solidified. I think so much, so often we so much surface level training, education and even conversations and concepts around leadership that everybody can talk about leadership, everybody can be an expert. But really can you actually go a little deeper and actually help somebody kind of like feel it where they actually want to move forward? Because we've talked about feeling. The last question, the very last question that I have for you is your TED talk on failure.

Speaker 1: 53:53

You know I was going to, you know I wasn't going to let you, let you, you know, in this conversation, without us talking about that, I watched it several times, several times, and you know I love the, the, the, the, the concept around, around fail and this idea around changing our perspective around what failure is. Right. You've had this and you continue to have this illustrious career right, where you started in stores and, and you know, rocked it out there, crushed it there. Now you are changing the entire dynamic of the retail industry with, with women of color, of retail. You know alliance, right, and now you're actually in the classroom and you're changing lives there, right. So when you think about the, the, the gravitas of actually doing a TED talk about failure?

Speaker 1: 54:50

Cool Um, were you nervous about that topic? And then how did you actually come up with that topic? Because you've had a lot of success in your career but I'm quite sure you've had some failure. Could you kind of correlate the fact of of the idea around why you wanted to actually have that TED talk and then maybe some of the failures or one failure that you've actually had to kind of maybe spurred that conversation or the dialogue that you wanted to have for that TED talk?

Speaker 2: 55:15

Well, yeah, I mean um, yes. So when I was contacted to do the TED talk, um, I was really surprised that they were contacting me because I didn't know how TED talks work. I watched TED talks but not, and, um, when I was being interviewed, they were talking about the subject matter. The theme was growth. And I was like, oh, okay. So I said, are there limitations to what you can talk about? I'm like no, that's okay. So I went home because they I know, they said we really enjoyed meeting you, we think you have a presence, that'd be great. So I was like what? What has been my biggest catalyst to growth? If I'm honest, I love it, and it's been loss and failure. And so I was like, okay, but are people going to accept that? Right.

Speaker 2: 56:22

Cause you know there's so many buzzwords around like fail fast and all this stuff. But if I'm going to do this, it has to be honest and it has to be meaningful and I'm hoping, if it's meaningful to me to deliver, it's meaningful for others to receive and um, and I've had a few like. I've had some really big losses and um and failures and you know, personally I'm professional. I lost my mom at an early age, I had poor miscarriages before I had my older son, you know, and so I touch on those things in there. But I would say that my biggest professional failure that has cattle, I mean it has catapulted me was being fired from Bath Body Works and it.

Speaker 2: 57:20

You know how when something is happening and you're like what am I? Is this happening? And then when you just sit in it and you're like, oh, I know, and it doesn't have anything to do with me, and that's what it was, that's what it was when I, I, I, my, my career at Bath Body Works was solid. I added over a billion dollars to the home business. My team was outstanding. I went from leading one organization, which was the home team, as the chief merchant, to being SVP over a merchandising group, I had to build the strategy group and I had operations.

Speaker 2: 58:10

I had to create a whole new process for the business because we were shutting down the New York office and I didn't know that was going to be our responsibility until I was called into a meeting. It's okay, Kimberly, once you meet, this is what we're doing, Thank you, and left. And I was left to figure it all out. I spoke at the quarterly briefings because my business was on fire and I was changing the way we worked. And then I got sick and while I was out sick, some stuff happened that I had no nothing to do with, but I was blamed for it. And when I came back I was let go. And I had never been let go. I had been a part of a company where we had to shut the business down, but I wasn't let go.

Speaker 2: 59:06

I was part of that shutdown and then I had to decide what I wanted to do next, but to actually just be let go. And you knew there was something else to it, because what the people were saying to you in the room didn't make sense, and I left there. On that day I went to the movies and I just sat in the movies and then I went home and I was like you know, I moved my family for this job and I'm going to tell them. So that's another layer of failure, because now I've failed. I got fired. Now I'm failing as a mother because I moved my children from their friends and farther from their family to be here, and I'm failing as a partner because our lifestyle is based on both of our careers.

Speaker 2: 59:51

Right, and it just went deep and I had to take some time and talk to my therapist. It was great. She was like, okay, I hear everything you're saying, but you're bigger than that. Like you're bigger than that. So I want you just to sit in it. Just sit in it and see what you want to do about it. And when I sat in it, the more I sat in it, the more I was got angry and stopped feeling like I was a failure and started to have this fire because, like I see very clearly, because after I was let go, there are only two other women of color there and they each were let go, Similar fashions. So I was like huh. And then a member of the board reached out to me and said everything we've heard about you, all these things you've been doing were fantastic. And then you came back. In the next week you came back and then a week later you're no longer there. Why.

Speaker 2: 1:00:55

I said, well, I don't know why, I can, I can guess.

Speaker 2: 1:01:00

But and it was just having those conversations, steve, and saying, all right, it's time to do something. It's time to do something. And I didn't know what it was, but it was like a fire in me and I know what this is some BS that had nothing to do with me and it is happening to women of color every day, or other women like there were women who were let go because of their age. They didn't say that, but you knew, based on all the stuff that was going on, and I was like, yeah, I have to use my powers for good now and I need to be a truth teller and not afraid, because I'm not beholden to any of these people and I think all of this happened for that reason, because it was. I remember it was the first, it was LinkedIn post and it was about something that happened and I gave my honest, totally true, like this is some mess and here's why. And the woman I worked for at Bath and my Work had gone on, she had moved on before they let me go.

Speaker 2: 1:02:19

She was the first person to hire Bumption and she was like you know, I'm sorry I was part of some mess so I didn't even know about it until it happened, but you're very valuable and it was from there.

Speaker 2: 1:02:37

I got another and then I got Van Deere and I went into all that with this newfound freedom that I just I was like, well, I don't think failure is a loss anymore, because all those failures have has led me here, and every day I wake up, I can meet new people, my time is my own, I'm making a change in the industry, I'm mentoring young people. If that's what that failure has led to, I am so good. I am so good and I want people to understand that. You know Every experience. It might feel bad when it happens, but if you really sit in it, there's a reason for it and there's a lesson to me learn. And if you've learned a lesson, it's not a failure. It's just not a failure. But you have to feel it.

Speaker 2: 1:03:30

You know, I didn't. I wasn't like yeah, but I also was pretty secure as and I teach this to young people now I said I negotiated my exit before I walked in the door. So when they were telling those little stories, I was like, okay, my attorney already has my. I'm good. I just didn't know what was gonna be next. And it's also just given me the freedom that I don't have to chase the next corporate job, because I'm working on something that's much more meaningful to me now and I would have never gotten here if it wasn't for back-and-body works.

Speaker 1: 1:04:13

No, oh my goodness, oh my goodness. We could go on, but I'm gonna be extremely respectful over your time. Correct Sage you have. You know what you've created, and this is. I'm gonna chop this part off, but you, as I was thinking about this, I said I have like five, six in different episodes Out of this conversation. I am so excited to actually go ahead and get to the editing part of this conversation because I know it is going to bless so many people. It's 2024, I'm just sort of the last who round. I'm gonna talk about this one too. It's 2024. What's next? What are your plans? Q1, q2? What are like one or two things that you're really gonna be going after personally, but also like from a professional standpoint, if you will?

Speaker 2: 1:05:08

They may go inside. So, personally, I'm gonna tell my age. I'm a leap year baby, my birthday is February 29th and I was born the year of the dragon and this is the year of the dragon and I have a real birthday. So, personally, I'm gonna be partying for a year Because I'm gonna celebrate me as a person who's the year of the dragon. So that's personally. That's awesome.

Speaker 2: 1:05:37

Professionally, there's so many things that just in the past four months, I've put in the pipeline for women of color retail alliance that I'm so excited to just pop off. So we have a podcast coming, we're working with incandescent media, we have memberships now right, corporate and visual memberships and we have some really cool new partners that we're gonna be bringing some unique programming to our roster of offerings. So I'm super excited about that. And we also just started working on our 2025 summit. We're actually gonna do a summit, and what's cool about that summit is that it's gonna be about people. It's gonna be focused on the softer side of retail, and so we'll be looking for partners with that, and I know you and I had started that conversation, but we're gonna really do that so that we can kick it off in 24, because it's gonna happen in 25. And so, professionally, I think that's what I'm excited about. I'm also excited my son graduates in May. Super excited to celebrate that milestone with him and see what's next. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:07:04

That's awesome. That's awesome. He had so much great stuff going on. I truly, truly wanna thank you for, dare I say, our friendship. Right, I know we've connected several times and I know we haven't connected in person, which is crazy, but we will. We will very soon.

Speaker 2: 1:07:24

I'll be in Atlanta. Oh yeah, I think in February and then definitely in May.

Speaker 1: 1:07:29

Oh, okay, well, definitely, we'll definitely connect then. But just following your career, you have been an inspiration and just learning from you and what you're doing with your organization, I've been able to apply several things to what I'm doing over here as well. So you are truly an inspiration to not just women of color, but to men of color too, I hope you know that.

Speaker 1: 1:07:52

I don't know if anyone's ever told you that, but if not, you are Just because of your steadfastness and who you are and what you stand for. There's no wavering in you, there's no guessing in you and who you are, and there's a surety of conversation and what you're gonna get, and I think that's lost. It's a lost trait, if you will, of a lot of leaders now, not who they are, but it is who you are, which is why I asked that question around where you were elected leader. I kind of knew the answer, but I just wanted to get your perspective on that one. I just want to thank you so much for your time and for everything that you've done for for the retail industry and also for myself as well. I thank you so much.

Speaker 2: 1:08:38

Thank you, steve. It's been a pleasure to be here today and it's been a pleasure to get to know you, and I've been able to reach out to you about some personal things and also put you on the list of our advisors for Walker. I didn't know if you knew that, but you are. And I'm surprised because men of color and retail. They need attention.

Speaker 1: 1:09:06

Yeah, just a little bit, Just a little bit, just a little bit. That's a whole another conversation with you on that one too. But you're 100% correct.

Speaker 2: 1:09:16

All right well, thank you.